buggery | And, in this week's comics (spoilery!)

Nightwing #93

Jack: have you read nw93 yet?
LC: YES OH MY GOD YES
Jack: the end made me sick to my stomach.
LC: yeah?
LC: I think it was supposed to.
Jack: i was all set to fucking LIKE catalina, too.
LC: I *hope* it was supposed to.
Jack: i'm sure it WAS supposed to.
Jack: devin's not in fact a cretin or a sociopath.
LC: but. yeah. Highly creepy.
Jack: but man, she is NOT done fucking with poor dick's life.
Jack: ...literally, now.
LC: i want bruce to just...come in and take him HOME. *whimper*
Jack: well. i had to love that that was about the first thing he said.
Jack: "bruce"
LC: YES.
LC: I stared at that panel for literally ten minutes
LC: just...whimpering. and looking.
Jack: i read it IN the store. at the counter, next to the cash register, cos i could. not. wait.
LC: mmmmhmmmm
LC: did you make noises?
LC: i shrieked and whimpered. and talked to it.
Jack: then eric-the-comixshop-guy came over as i finished, and saw the look on my face, and said, uh oh, i guess i better read this...
LC: mmmHMMM.
LC: ...okay, and this is in terrible taste but I can't help it--from the mostly idiotic DC boards--
"When will these superhero chicks learn that when a guy says No.. can't breathe.. so sorry Bruce.. Failed you.. No, Don't touch me..
He means "No"?
Jack: that... just... what catalina did? pushed ALL my non-con buttons.
Jack: and not the hotsexywrong noncon buttons, either.
LC: Indeed.
LC: I don't see how anyone could...I mean...
LC: There might have been ways to play that which weren't creepy as HELL.
Jack: well, certainly devin's giving us a very clear idea of who catalina is, as a character. as a person.
LC: Mmmm.
LC: it's odd. From her interviews, this is not at ALL where I would have expected her to go with catalina.
Jack: it's one thing to off some murdering psychopath who's all but begging for it [and i've come to the conclusion that desmond DID have a death wish]. it's quite another to not only have no remorse, but to do your victory dance horizontally on top of some poor schmuck who's clearly out of it.
LC: *nod*
LC: It's...a lot more skewed than she's previously appeared.
LC: --and I mean. I wouldn't demand she have remorse for killing Blockbuster. I have plenty of respect for a moral system that *requires* him and people like, say, Joker to die. But jesus, don't fuck the guy having the nervous breakdown on the roof.
Jack: it would please me to rip catalina's fingernails off, sodomise her with them, and then gouge her eyes out with them.
LC: ...wow.
LC: *backs away slowly*
LC: Not that I don't understand. But wow.
Jack: i wasn't exaggerating when i said what she did pushed my buttons.
LC: clearly.
Jack: and this is obviously my bias and my own issues talking, but what she did to dick was twenty times worse than what she did to blockbuster.
LC: well, I don't think what she did to blockbuster was bad at all. I think it was virtuous. But, of course, I don't share the Bat psychoses.
Jack: well. killing = wrong, even when the person deserves to die and is better off dead and is a menace left alive.
LC: hmmm. that would be the point of dispute.
LC: but regardless, yes, she raped nightwing and that was just....made me *shiver.*
LC: in the bad way.
Jack: yes. YES.
Jack: i'm so glad YOU said that.
LC: this is...the low point of his entire *life.* She chooses to come on to him when he's absolutely powerless to do anything.
Jack: you know what it reminded me of?
Jack: shado and ollie.
LC: Didn't read that, but I heard.
Jack: yeah, i haven't actually read the issue[s] in question either, but i'm familiar with the backstory.
LC: ...comics men get raped a lot, it seems.
Jack: maybe not a lot, but... they seem to get raped by WOMEN more often than rl men do.
LC: well, yeah.

Jack: the even-more-disturbing thing is that i KNOW from advance solicitations that dick's going to tag along after her for the next couple of issues.
Te: Well, that's DICK.
Jack: it's like babs said -- somebody's nice to him once, and he CLEAVES to them. and the poor addled boy is apparently going to read ...THAT as 'being nice.'
Te: ...
Te: <--not shocked
Jack: maybe ollie will have a talk with him about evil women taking advantage you when you're not able to defend yourself.
Jack: ...and maybe bruce will send dick roses.

Fortunately, there were other comixses in this week to lift my spirits.

Batman #627

Judd continues to hold my attention with his Scarecrow/Penguin team up storyline -- somebody will correct me if I'm mistaken, I'm sure, but I believe this is the first time we've seen Penguin working with any of the other big-name villains since he supposedly went straight. Also, Mr Winick's ability to create and introduce interesting original female characters (can I get a whoop whoop for Josie Mac?) without them jarring or giving off Mary Sue vibes (something Certain Other Writers Who Shall Remain Nameless Fucktards can't seem to manage with *established* female characters) continues to amaze and delight me. And furthermore, "Not that I know of." Bwee dee fucking BWEE.

Green Arrow #38

I am dangerously close to continuing to read this title after the "City Walls" storyline ends. It wouldn't be so bad. It's only one book, as opposed to one book that will slippery-slope drag me into reading the other 3 or 14 titles in its corner of the DCU... Beyond the eee-I-love-these-characters fest that is Ollie, Connor, Dinah and Mia (and Roy, who's around by mention and inference if nothing else)... well, there's just a damned lot to love. Ollie organising and leading an army out of the city's finest and its lowest. The unrelenting PRETTY. (Somebody needs to pass Guy Majors the memo about Connor's skin tone, but if that's my only complaint...) The way Connor and Ollie work together so seamlessly it almost feels out of place in the D-is-for-Dysfunctional-DCU. And stuff like this -- Smart. Graceful. Looks more like Dick than Roy. -- well. I sporfled so hard I almost got spittle on the book, but also, Judd, I love your take on the Arrow-boys and their relationships with the Bat-boys. (For those of you reading this for the spoilers, that was Ollie's internal monologue as Mia, with whom he's sparring, used the momentum from taking an uppercut to flip up and over Ollie; his next thought, That's more like Roy. referred to Mia kicking him in the small of the back.) And the girls, too! There needs to be Cass/Mia femsmut. With sparring. And terse conversation about daddy issues. I could even see Ollie asking Bruce to let his girl train with Bruce's. Or just send her to Babs's place with Dinah.

And I'm getting off-topic. Where to now? Oh, right.

Teen Titans #11

Tim and Kory. Jeebus. I want porn now in which they tell each other lies while fucking each other senseless. "You don't remind me of Dick at all." "I don't want him any more than you still do." Then there's the creeptasticness of Ravager and Deathstroke (and 'Wintergreen was my other daddy!'), which is its own kind of sexy wrongness. Vic, kicking ass and cracking wise. Bart playing EMT. Mike McKone drawing Gar in mid-shift between animal and human forms. I think I fell in love with Raven at "Hello, Garfield" -- and not just because I have a thing for bald chicks. And... Joey. JOEY. Naked green giant JOEYWOOBIE.

In other news, nothing whatsoever surprising -- positive, negative or otherwise -- happened in Batman: City of Light #8/8. It didn't suck, it just wasn't the delicious, delightful romp that #7/8 was. The Brothers Pander just tied up their plot threads in a neat package, and that was that.

Still to be read: LotDK #179, Gotham Central #19, Smallville #8, Stormwatch: Team Achilles #22 and, once I get my copy (it was unaccountably missing from my box at the comixshop, and I only just found out that it came out this week), Action Comics #815.

Also, if you've read this far and still aren't picking up the new Firestorm, which rebooted at issue #1 last week? You need to be, and you will eventually, so you might as well get your copy of the first one now while they're readily available.

ETA: I haven't seen an advance copy, or any portion thereof, or even any spoilers for Robin #126, only heard the dismayed noises of those who have been so spoiled. I fully expect to be just as dismayed -- I gave Willinghamfucktard the benefit of the doubt, and he's batting .002 about now -- but I'm going to continue reading. Not so I can bitch about how much I hate what's been done to 'my' book, and not even simply to maintain my continuous issue run; because I can't fanwank the canon without reading it.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

*skips past spoilery comments on GA*

I... have nothing intelligent to say. Because... yeah. What you said. Especially about Tim/Kory. *phraooowwwr*

ETA: I haven't seen an advance copy, or any portion thereof, or even any spoilers for Robin #126, only heard the dismayed noises of those who have been so spoiled. I fully expect to be just as dismayed -- I gave Willinghamfucktard the benefit of the doubt, and he's batting .002 about now -- but I'm going to continue reading. Not so I can bitch about how much I hate what's been done to 'my' book, and not even simply to maintain my continuous issue run; because I can't fanwank the canon without reading it.

*nod nod* And really, I desperately need the fanwanks. Or I *will* need them when I can bring myself to think about Tim seriously again.

I only liked 'City Walls' when it looked like it was about the Riddler. Everything since then? Not to much. *runs off to reread Straightshooter again and again*

I'm not allowed to start anything new like that without finishing some of my WIPs first...

That's too bad for you.

What *have* you enjoyed in comics lately, though? Enthusiasm is infectious.

*snort*

*sets alarm for Jack-stalking*

Coming to this late - but yes, absolutely, what happened on that rooftop read to me as rape. I actually had one person describe it to me as "hot twisted non-con," and I had to stop myself from saying, "if that's what gets you off, you need massive therapy."

I think Catalina will be the person Dick pushes away, rather than loses -- stepping away from her will be his first step back to being himself. Thank goodness.

I also think there's a whole psychological treatise to be written on why Dick picks up such BAD mentees -- first Nite-wing, and now this. There are all sorts of Bruce issues and self-esteem issues you oculd read out of it.

Part of me actually wants to ask people who see the Catalina/Dick thing on the rooftop as "hot" or "kinky" to explain their position in greater detail, because Catalina herself clearly doesn't think she's doing anything wrong, and they're the closest I'm likely to get to a peek inside her mind and motivations. The rest of me, of course, wants to throw the puta off the roof and take Dick home to Alfred and Bruce.

As for Dick pushing her away... do you mean like the way things turned out with him and Helena?

I think Dick is going to have to come to his senses about her lack of a consistent moral center, but that it's going to take him time, because her behaviour towards him, even when he can see it unambiguously as wrong, has almost always been well-intentioned, particularly towards Dick himself. He has a hard time separating that sort of thing from people's other actions.

Now the people who have wound up being Dick's quasi-sidekicks in Bludhaven (the Titans aside) ...I'd love to read some nice meaty meta about that. You seem to have some ideas yourself.

No, Dick's still able to work with Helena, even if he doesn't like to.

Blockbuster's right that Dick values other people more than he values himself. What he'll have to do to get past this, I think, is to find a center that's about *him.* Right now, he's just violated the center of his own moral code, and he's lost so many of the people he cares about, so you're right that it'll take him a while to see Catalina for who she really is. But I think part of that will have to be his being willing and able to stand alone, to actively reject the last person who he sees as being willing to embrace him, before he can come back to the healthier relationships with his co-workers and Babs and even Bruce. (Note I said healthiER, not healthy!)

Gotta run, so let me know if any of this was written too quickly to follow.

Part of me actually wants to ask people who see the Catalina/Dick thing on the rooftop as "hot" or "kinky" to explain their position in greater detail, because Catalina herself clearly doesn't think she's doing anything wrong, and they're the closest I'm likely to get to a peek inside her mind and motivations.

Well, you know where *I'm* coming from. It doesn't read as any more fucked up than, say, what I did with Bruce and Tim in "The air, you breathe" -- which I know fucked with your head -- or, say, "Echoes hanging in the air," or, hell, "Teeth."

Hot, twisted non-con -- or non-con-ish -- stories, all of them. At least, that's the general consensus. They're all meant to get the reader off, and they're all meant to make the reader at least a little sick, too. They're fucked up.

Really, I tend to think a lot of us are way harder on female characters than we are on male ones -- and we've had THAT conversation, too. Catalina is no less reprehensible for what she does to Dick in 93 than Bruce is any *number* of my stories -- but she's no *more* reprehensible, either, imo.

Well. There's a distinction between what I read in NC-17 fanfiction about the characters, and what happens to them in canon -- at least, there is for me.

Or, to put it another way... does anybody read "The Killing Joke" and think what Joker did to Barbara was hot and kinky? Would it have been hot and kinky to Barbara? (Even if you go with the least gah interpretation, and presume Joker just stripped her naked and took photographs.)

Was what Catalina did hot and kinky for Dick? Or was it something that happened because he just didn't know how to stop it -- like so much else that's happened in his life lately?

I think maybe that's why it bothers me so much, beyond the non-con and gender issues... Catalina is perpetuating a pattern that has meant only heartbreak, pain and loss for Dick. Either it's unforgivably stupid, or it's outright cruel.

Well. There's a distinction between what I read in NC-17 fanfiction about the characters, and what happens to them in canon -- at least, there is for me.

That I can see. I don't really agree, but I can see it.

Or, to put it another way... does anybody read "The Killing Joke" and think what Joker did to Barbara was hot and kinky? Would it have been hot and kinky to Barbara? (Even if you go with the least gah interpretation, and presume Joker just stripped her naked and took photographs.)

... bad analogy. It takes one fuck of a lot for me to think "hot and kinky" about *anything* Joker-related, which you already know. If Killing Joke was a fanfic, it would have the same effect on me that it does now -- "Eeek. Great story, but fucking eeek."

Was what Catalina did hot and kinky for Dick? Or was it something that happened because he just didn't know how to stop it -- like so much else that's happened in his life lately?

I think maybe that's why it bothers me so much, beyond the non-con and gender issues... Catalina is perpetuating a pattern that has meant only heartbreak, pain and loss for Dick. Either it's unforgivably stupid, or it's outright cruel.

I don't think it's unforgiveable -- but I do think it was egregiously stupid. And I also think it was hot, and fucked-up, and sick, and *bad* for Dick. I don't know, Jack. Find some other canon example. It wasn't healthy, mutual sex, but it also wasn't shooting Dick in the spine and molesting his paralyzed, bleeding body.

Looking at it from Catalina's POV...? It's not so hard to see why *she* (probably, since we don't know what's happening next beyond solicits) wouldn't see the wrong in what she did.

And, in this week's comics (spoilery!)

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